First of all, let me say that I am NOT a proponent of people changing churches because “they are not getting fed.” Or in other words, THEIR needs aren’t getting met. I would like to think that I’m beyond that in my search for a new church home, but who am I kidding…it’s always about me. I’m as much of a consumer as anyone else, and churches today don’t feel much different, it’s just another “product.” Sadly, we don’t go to church to give something back or to worship, we go to get something out of it and if the “product” doesn’t live up to it’s packaging we move on to someplace else that can give us what we want. And if nothing ever meets our criteria for what we consider a good church, then we will keep moving around hoping to find that “perfect” church until we become nothing more that church hoppers.
Perhaps I’ve grown cynical or disillusioned, perhaps I’ve grown cranky in my old age, or perhaps I’ve just grown tired. I don’t know. My friend Smitty mentioned that a lot of people are looking for a “new way” to do church, and maybe she’s right. But my problem is I’m not sure what a “new way” means. Every church we’ve visited claim to do church in a “new way,” but it’s not much different from church to church. I think what will finally click for us is the Holy Spirit revealing where we need to plug in and serve. She also mentioned that perhaps we all should just start our own church, but we’d wind up doing church in an old “new way.” You know they have cowboy churches, biker churches, people who like to drink beer churches, and churches for people who are tired of denominational churches. I like Matt’s list:
The Sporty Church
The Too Many Kids Church
The Leftish Slackers Church
The Jean Skirts and Braids Church
The Scary with Way Too Many Banners in the Sanctuary Church
The Don’t Get Me Started On The Crazy Guy In The Pulpit With a Short Tie and a Large Belly Church
So perhaps I’ll start a church for the people who don’t know what they want.
Now on to the comments about pastors. I never intended to offend ANY pastor or staff member – or any pastor’s wives. That is one job I wouldn’t have for all the money in the world. If you haven’t read what Dan said in the comments, check it out – he makes some very interesting points. I personally think it would be a pain to minister to someone like me, and the church is full of people just like me – whiney, spoiled consumers.
And Eduardo, I agree with you. I would NEVER, EVER presume who or what God can use. I was talking about pastors moving around at the whim of denom hierarchy more tongue and cheek. Pastors and staff members need to go where they feel God can use their talents the best. And for those pastors and staff members who work within a hierarchical structure, they either have to trust that their superiors are sensitive to God’s Holy Spirit and know what is best, or they need to get out.
I also think Brian Bowen had a very good point when he spoke to the issue of pastors moving every 2 – 3 years: “But what we have discovered is, when a pastor comes in with new innovative ideas, the local body never buys into it. WHY? Well, because they know he’s only gonna be there a couple years. So why change everything upside down and get all uncomfortable when this guy is not gonna hang around to work through it all.” I’ve known pastors and church staff members like that; they are only there until they can get a bigger and better church. Nothing wrong with that, we all want to be recognized in our chosen fields and advancement is one way we get that recognition. And who’s to say that God didn’t bless this minister’s ministry with “more?” Certainly not me, especially after I just got my promotion. 😉
Being church today is a complex thing, whether you are on the full-time paid ministry side or the part-time volunteer ministry side. I don’t speak for all those who are seriously searching for God knows what, or the staff members who have to deal with all those people who are searching for God knows what. I speak only for myself. And if I could figure out what it means to do church in a “new way” I’d be all over that. I like how John put it in the 2nd chapter of Acts (from the Message):
“They committed themselves to the teaching of the apostles, the life together, the common meal, and the prayers. Everyone around was in awe – all those wonders and signs done through the apostles! And all the believers lived in a wonderful harmony, holding everything in common. They sold whatever they owned and pooled their resources so that each person’s need was met. They followed a daily discipline of worship in the Temple followed by meals at home, every meal a celebration, exuberant and joyful, as they praised God. People in general liked what they saw. Every day their number grew as God added those who were saved.”
1st Century Christianity vs. 21st Century Consumerism. *sigh*
His peace.
B~
June 19, 2007 at 10:23 pm
you mad too?? sigh
June 20, 2007 at 12:40 am
I hope you’re able to find some suitable congregation, Bruce. We’ve been there. Didn’t really end up in a place we wanted… just stopped at some point to rest and never left. Now we’re on staff- part time, and not sure what to do. sigh.
June 20, 2007 at 11:13 pm
This is a great conversation and PLEASE take what I posted earlier with a huge dose of humor. The “church” was never meant to be “perfect” nor can it ever be so in the present age- that’s the point- we are the witnesses to the grace of God. I love what I do and I love the privelege of my call. It’s a GRACE thing- all the way for all of us- grace and peace.
June 21, 2007 at 8:58 am
Been thinking of this one just today (I’m weird like that) …
How about a church where everyone worships (i.e. sings) together then everyone goes to a small group of some sort instead of listening to a sermon?
June 22, 2007 at 10:36 am
What if we are wrong completely? What if its not worship or sermons or messages or grouping or planning or feeling good or growing? What if the central necessity of the church is unity? It is perhaps the Thing Jesus seemed most concerned about among his believers.
What if the Lord’s Supper is the single most important element of churching? He spoke and he worked and he commanded his disciples to do the same. But he also instituted a rite and only one that I can recall off hand and at this hour — That Last Supper. What if sharing communion is more important than anything else we do corporately? It speaks to unity also, does it not?
Just a thought…
June 23, 2007 at 6:22 pm
I think that I could somewhat agree with Eduardo about communion if it looked like it did a the Last Supper and not the sterile reflection of it that we see so often today. There is unity sitting around a table sharing your life with others but there is no unity in popping a wafer and a shot of wine and not saying a word – not sharing any part of you.
June 23, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Got caught up think about about communion this morning and posted about it. (http://eye4redemption.blogspot.com/2007/06/cost-of-friendship.html)
June 23, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Make that http://eye4redemption.blogspot.com/2007/06/what-is-communion.html … he says yawning 🙂
June 24, 2007 at 11:19 pm
I feel like crap. I don’t know why your blog was coming up as not updated for the last millions months but I have been missing out. I am sorry.
Anyhow, this is a great conversation and I like Bob’s idea. What do people REALLY need more than another sermon is a time to focus on Christ (worship) and then to be in a group where they an share, hear and be heard, feel safe. Then we could serve each other by meeting the needs of the people in our group whatever they may be.
I guess a message from the pastor would be good too….I’d miss that part, I do like that.
June 27, 2007 at 8:57 am
I finally stumbled back here after too long. Looks like a great conversation. I need to go back and look at previous posts and comments.
Don’t be too quick to long for the early church. Look at how totally screwed up they were too. And some of them had first-hand experience with the Christ and His disciples, including witnessing miracles.
We still haven’t found a church yet either. I really hate the process.
I have been to a church where the Eucharist was the main event so to speak, instead of the performance, I mean message, by the pastor. It was so refreshing to see a pastor who intentionally stayed in the background so that the focus would be on Christ.
It’s so difficult not to feel like a consumer, but it’s also so hard to settle for the same old crap. Of course God can and does minister to a lot of people through those stale approaches. But when you go to twelve different churches which span several denominations and the way they do church is almost the same. That same basic order of service (with slight variations in order of elements), the same inane music delivered by enthusiastic Christian cheerleaders, the same basic style of preaching, the time to “greet one another, the pastoral prayer that is more talking to the congregation than God, etc., etc., etc.
Again, I know that the traditional/contemporary American Evangelical worship service meets the feeding needs of millions of sheep each week. But if I were to take the grazing sheep metaphor a step further, it seems that American Christians are more like factory-farm sheep than free-range sheep. And I think that’s why the unChurched, the house-church and the emerging church movements are growing.
June 27, 2007 at 11:17 pm
I had worked 12 hours on three hours of sleep when I wrote the previous reply. I guess I was a wee bit tetchy. Pardon the tone. There was no need for me to be a troll.
July 6, 2007 at 3:31 am
Not meaning to be interrupting but, I was struck by the emotion present in this conversation! I hope it is ok to leave a note of question or encouragement.
The theme throughout seems to be focused on our envolvements in worship or distastes there of. Is “church” simply a mater of how we engage in worship? Is it really whether or not we are worshiping (singing, preaching, communion, ect.) in a large gathering or in a different envoronment? Is “church” simply a place where we gather or is it a living identity we can find within those we choose to gather with? And how would we define that identity? Jesus, perhaps?
I think of Jesus’ call in Luke 10:1-12 and it seems he has so much more to say about church then just what we do in our buildings and homes. It seems even more focused on the idea of sending out! Going to where “church” isn’t and presenting it as growing relationally between the missional work and developments of two, no three, no four, wait…”and the Lord added to there numbers daily!” Perhaps, not always in the environments of safety as even Paul felt the fear of dieing (Acts 27) but, always in the hearts, minds, and belief that we are sharing in the gospel message. A story yet unfinished!
Perhaps, instead of asking the question of “Where should I church?”; we can ask the question, “Where is Jesus?” because if we can join him there… then I think we can be a church! In that pursuit, I wish you all of God’s wisdom and guidance.
July 7, 2007 at 4:24 am
Just a thought – if you find the perfect church, don’t go to it; you will spoil it…….
July 11, 2007 at 7:30 pm
Put simply, the difference is all between “method” and the presence of God. All the difference in the world. That’s what changed things for me…I’d never go back to “church as usual” again.